Editor’s Note:?The Covid-19 pandemic has brought a profound impact on the whole world. Different countries have been coping with this public health crisis in different ways. How will the pandemic of COVID-19 change the world? And what will world order in the post-COVID-19 era be like? These questions attract attention of all people. For these questions, David Gosset, the founder of Europe-China Forum, discusses with Kishore Mahbubani, Singapore’s veteran diplomat in the video-link interview of A Time of Resilience.

David Gosset: Can you tell us how do you see the post COVID-19 world order?

Kishore Mahbubani: The post COVID-19 world will be different in three ways. Firstly, humanity as a whole will come to realize that we all live on the same boat. Before globalization, when 7.5 billion people lived in 193 separate countries, yes, as though we were living in 193 separate boats. Today, all of us live in 193 separate cabins on same boat, which has become like the ill-fated Diamond Princess of Japan. Secondly, it will become clear to many countries all around the world that on balance, the East Asian countries, including China, Singapore and South Korea have responded better to COVID-19 than many western countries. People will therefore realize the wisdom of having both the visible hand of free markets and the visible hand of good governance to balance each other. Thirdly, at the individual level, we will appreciate the importance of investing in our good health.

David Gosset: Clearly, we are in a time of resilience, but could you tell us, Mr. Mahbubani, what is your understanding of resilience for countries?

Kishore Mahbubani: Different countries display resilience in different ways. Just compare the U.S. with China. The U.S. believes that freedom of choice and even chaos leads to resilience. China has demonstrated its resilience by being the world’s oldest continuous civilization. And this is also shown in their responses to COVID-19. Edward Luce, a Financial Times correspondent wrote on 17th April, 2020 that COVID-19 offers a unique stress test of each country’s resilience. Some nation-states are holding up well in spite of this unmatched scientific prowess. The U.S. is not. That’s what Edward Luce says. It’s true that so far, the U.S. has not done well. Yet it is equally true, as Winston Churchill said, you can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else. So, after its initial chaotic responses, the U.S. could bounce back and show resilience. China has demonstrated resilience in other ways. Chinese civilization has been around much longer, over 4000 years, compared to only 250 for the U.S. With this longer track record, it has demonstrated that, it is clearly the most resilient civilization in the world. As professor Wang Gungwu, Asia’s greatest historian has said, Chinese civilization is the only civilization that has been knocked down four times and stood up all times. In the 21st century, Chinese civilization is coming back with great strength and overcoming challenges like COVID-19.

David Gosset: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Mahbubani, for this rich conversation. We spoke about the resilience of countries, but we could also speak about the resilience of ideas, and your ideas are resilient. Thank you very much.